The warlock's flexibility definetly needs some attention.
Type
Request to be created
NWN2Game
All
Description
The warlock is a new base class, of course a fun one to play, but I think it should be more flexible regarding multiclassing, especally presitge-classing.
The warlock is a mage, right? Isn't it arcane powers he uses?
Well, I would love for the warlock to be able to qualify for the following prestige classes:
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Sholar of Candlekeep
Harper Agent
Arcane Archer
Arcane Trickster
Pale Master
I think this might require the creation of a feat called:
<prestige class> spellcasting, warlock
i.e.:
Pale Master Spellcasting, warlock
Also, according to the 2da files, warlocks are not considered to "have arcane" even though they suffer arcane spell failure.
So, in the listed prestige classes, the warlock should still be able to gain new spells and increase the eldritch blast damage.
Most of the NWN-1 PrC classes weren't too bad. The races in the PrC were the real munchkin-bait. ECL is a reasonable balance method on low-level campaigns, but a high ECL is almost a boon for high-level ones -- gives the game more leveling space and ultimately an extremely overpowered character.
E.g. Drow warlock in OC is tedious and a little weak for at least half the campaign. Same drow is a romper stomper all through MotB. Thinking about Half-Celestial or Rakshasha as a PC race gives me visions of midgets singing "Follow the Yellow Brick Road".
@Bjond: I've seen some pretty ultra-munchkin builds in NWN2 using the Obsidian implementation of 3.5E rules; the NWN PRC is quite tame by comparison, and more true to the books than most players are able to understand.
@Ladydesire. I love Kaji's comic relief, but his rogue skills are sadly lacking. They're static for the entire game and insufficient for many of the rogue-tasks required past chapter 1. That's one of the main things I love about the combined-works override. I can rebuild the NPCs completely using the in-game leveling methods rather than hacking via GFF.
I tried Safiya as a pure rogue for a little bit. She was FAR more effective than as a wizard, but it just felt wrong making her something so different from her original. I'm running through with her as wiz5 / asock7 / rogue 3 / trickster 10 now. She's not nearly as effective in a fight, but she feels like herself again and it's much more fun to struggle a bit more on the fights, too.
My desire for the warlock class is to fill in some of the gaps in warlock balance. I like being PnP as possible, but more because of the tendency for folks to add ridiculously unbalancing features when they diverge than for any deep need to conform to the PnP. I'd like to avoid what happened with the old ultra-munchkin PrC and NWN-1.
NWN2 Warlock has issues with non-scaling invokes, with DC, and with SR. I love Dubby's scaling fixes; CHA bonus is perfect! 'Dunno if those are PnP or not and don't care. They're well done and nicely balanced. I think the dodge bonus for Devil's should be removed as overpowering, but that's about it. Is that part PnP or not?
The SR issue is 100% due to the SR Warlock CL/2 bug in NWN2. Obsidian might fix that eventually, but I'm hoping one of the more ambitious players will beat them to it.
That just leaves the DC issue. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the PnP to know if it's handled there or not. It could be done via methods to increase the DC (like mage focii feats) or via methods to decrease target's saves (scaling debuffs). Warlock lacks both.
There's no warlock breach and only a L=15 cap dispel. Curse doesn't have the full -saves PnP gives -- and it has a save itself. Utterdark's L-2 is too small to help and doesn't stack, so you can't reapply to increase it. I don't know if it should stack in PnP, but NWN2's isn't worthwhile to use.
Some of the epic feats I've read about in the PnP for warlock are amazing for damage rate -- sculptor or shape, iirc, seemed to double the damage output. No need for quicken if those are added. IIRC, there's no such thing as NWN's eldritch master -- it seemed to be made up of pieces of several different PnP feats.
PrC for Warlock? Well, not from my own desires. I don't see any harm in opening up the caster PrCs to warlock. You loose more than you gain by using one. So, if I decide to toy with one, my games will still have similar difficulty.
As far as the feats you want for Warlocks, only three are possible if you want PnP-compatibility; Empower Spell-like Ability (that's what Warlock Invocations are classified as), Quicken Spell-like Ability, and Ability Focus. Since Invocations aren't spells, Practiced Spellcaster isn't possible, nor are any of the other metamagic feats. However, if you're not concerned about that (I know many players aren't) then someone can script them. There are also 3 or 4 Prestige Classes that do enhance Warlocks, but I don't know all of the names off-hand.
Axe Neeshka?! That's .. that's .. uh, unthinkable. How could you?
Heh, I love the rogue class. TWF build with stun weapons turns a rogue into a killing machine with tons of useful skills. Rogue and Bard are two classes I consider "essential" to most parties and BOTH are missing from MotB. ; ;
The "game controlled" NPCs like Okku and OoM are worthless when you can't customize their skill sets and gear. I always kill those and then MC Safiya into Arcane Trickster to get the required open-lock & disarm skills. I could just make wands for knock and use PMD for traps, but I do agree with your reasoning about having at least one character with true rogue skills along.
Rogue skills are just plain required in any party. If you want to be as vanilla as possible with your NPCs, you have to put those skills on your main to ensure your party always has them.
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BTW, back on the OP's topic: I agree that the warlock needs more options. Dubby's pack does a great job of that by adding extra spell slots, removing some of the grosser non-PnP changes (ie. group haste), and making many of the spells more PnP and more scalable.
The warlock's spell list is so short that any invoke that doesn't scale with the level of the warlock quickly becomes useless; eg. Dead Walk stops being useful at level 10 because all it can summon are Skeletons. Vanilla Leap is pointless past level 8 or so because you can make better DEX+ gear at that level (with an NPC) or level 12 with your main.
Dubby's PnP version makes Leap useful from level 1 to 40. Same thing with the changes to the other Least buffs to make them more PnP. They now scale up and stay useful.
The changes I'm hoping for on Warlock are mostly bug fixes with the casting (all the ESL & SR stuff) as well as a whole slew of feats that the warlock needs (focii, practiced, metas). IMHO, MC'ing a warlock has to be done very carefully or you don't have a warlock anymore, you have a warlock-enhanced (or gimped) other-class.
But, having those options is always nice. People come up with surprising new twists on things for their builds. Those interesting variations on old builds are what makes the game replay so well.
I may be wrong, but I think that in Dubby's compilation PM is fixed (i.e. only 1 CL is lost).
AT...well, he is effectively Mage/Thief (or Warlock/Thief). He is less effective in both roles that a pure class, yes, but you can still have both caster and thief in one party slot. For example, its good if you hate Neeshka and don't wish to be a pure rogue ).
I agree that both PrC aren't the best for a warlock, but EK, ASoC and Harper Agent seems to be completely useless to me. Especially ASoC.
IMHO, the things a warlock lacks isn't really prestige class access, but rather a few of the abilities open to other spellcasters. A warlock has no way to increase the DC of his essenced blasts -- there aren't any spell-focus feats. Spell Casting Prodigy doesn't work for increasing the DC for a Warlock, too. Spell penetration doesn't work for overcoming SR on blasts. And, there's no "Practiced Warlock" feat for warlocks who want to multi-class.
IMHO, the most interesting classes for a warlock to multiclass are Paladin (hard) and Blackguard (easy). Both Divine Grace and Dark Blessing stack and add their bonuses to the base saves -- they dodge the cap. AFAIK, those feats are the only way to increase your "bonus" to saves past the +20 hard cap.
Combine that with epic-resilience and your character is effectively immune to anything that permits a save. You have to give up a fair bit for those saves, though. Other casters can take practiced caster, spell penetration, etc. to mitigate that.
-=-=-
BTW, out of curiosity I tested some of the things a warlock can't normally select. It's true that none of the normal metamagic feats work for warlock. However, ALL the automatic metas do work; eg. automatic still, silent, and quicken spell work fine.
Quicken only needs Q4 to cover all of a warlock's spells, too. This highlights the other major bug with warlock -- the spell level checks are often grossly wrong. Like Ethereal Visage blocks all least & lesser blasts due to it's "immune to level 2 spells" effects. It even blocks blasts modified with higher essences depending on how you selected the blast (the esl isn't used).
Also, as a combat mage, warlock highlights the concentration check bug, which instead of using a DC of Damage + Spell Level, uses a DC of Damage + Caster Level -- a damn gross error that means the higher you level the easier it becomes to interrupt you! It should probably use the ESL of the blast there instead of the CL.
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Heh, long post. BTW, the comments about the OP's desires not being good for warlock also apply to Palemaster and Arcane Trickster. PM gains a lot of nice features, but you give up CL/2 on the spell gains unless you also hack up PM to be more PnP. And, everything PM gains is commonly found on gear or easy to put there with crafting. So you don't really gain anything in the end.
AT is better, but the damage gains only work with direct blasts and chains. Doom suffers. In a setting with lots of concealment critters, doom is a staple. Plus, you give up 3-4 CL and DC and loose 3 selectable feats -- and push out imbue. This is one combo practiced-warlock would make much more attractive.
Well, as ladydesire said, there is already great pack which gives you 3 possible PrC for warlock, including arcane trickster and pale master.
I'm not certain about Arcane Archer (it isn't really arcane PrC to begin with), but the other 3 PrC you mentioned are kind of useless for warlock.
Let's see: 1)Eldritch knight. If you take 10 levels of E.K (being warlock) you lose 1 caster level and gain... +2 or 3 BAB (the difference between high and medium BAB). Oh, and you will most likely lose Imbue item, bonuses to Resilience and damage reduction. Power wise, it doesn't worth it. Roleplaying... well, 10/10 wizard/EK is a warrior-mage. But pure warlock is basically warrior-mage already (extra hp, light/medium armor, medium BAB).
2)Arcane Scholar. This class is all about metamagic and improved metamagic, but warlock cannot apply any metamagic.
3)Harper Agent. Once again, you sacrifice 1 caster level for minor bonuses to saves. No extra BAB, no extra HP, and you must get two rather useless feats and waste precious skillpoints on two cross-class skills (Diplomacy and Survival).
It may have some sense in roleplaying, but who said that pure Warlock cannot be a Harper?
Thanks for your replies -- shannonjoker, I will post a comment with the link to this idea in her entry. _________________________ Trust is for the foolish... And the dead.
Sunwatcher, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was very excited to see the Warlock available as a class, but at the same time disappointed that warlocks don't qualify for any spellcasting prestige classes.
Ladydesire is a Goddess for creating such a wonderful package for warlocks, but I wonder if Obsidian will come up with some sort of spellcasting prestige class for the Warlock to be included in a future updates, say with an expansion, or whatever, without having to use HAKS , or overrides...
It seems a shame to create such a wonderful new class, and then just kind of dump it, and not follow up, especially after all the specialized attention given to Clerics in NWN2.
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