Mandolins, drums and flutes gathering dust in your inventory? This makes your bard songs and inspirations more effective, if you choose to wield an instrument instead of a weapon and shield.
Details of the bonuses are in the Readme.
I'm calling this version 0.1, because it probably needs serious balancing. All suggestions to improve balancing are welcome - please be as specific as possible!
Posted by Arvirago at 2008-03-13 05:34:30 Voted 7.50 on 03/13/08
I'm making a system based on your idea for our PW, but your are way too overpowered for us.
We have already cut down the original inspirations. They are now this way:
Inspire Courage: attack+1 (level1), attack+1 & damage+1 (level 7), attack+2 & damage+1 (level 13), attack+2 & damage+2 (level 19).
Inspire Competence: skills+1 (level 2), skills+2 (level 9), skills+3 (level 16).
Inspire Defense: CA+1 (level 4), CA+2 (level 11), CA+3 (level 18).
Inspire Regeneration: 1 (level 10), 2 (level 15), 3 (level 20).
Inspire Toughness: saves+1 (level 8), saves+2 (level 12), saves+3 (level 16).
Inspire Slowing: 10% (level 5), 20% (level 11), 30% (level 17).
Inspire Jarring: concentration-4 & will save-2 (level 14).
Since I don't want to make them more powerful, I will probably use instruments to increase the duration or the area of effect of inspirations. _________________________ Reino de Aldor
It might be better, instead of having just static values, to have the bonus related to the bard's perform ability.
Ex on a perform roll of 15 +1 bonus, and + 1 for every additional 5.
I may have missed something, but it doesnt seem like the bard's perform ability is really used a whole lot.
Posted by puychaudko at 2007-01-22 23:43:15 Voted 8.25 on 01/16/07
Clubok,
The party is usually 5-6, so as you say +2/+2 is a lot, but I take your point re the bonuses seeming low at higher levels. I like the idea of changing the scripts so that different instruments give different bonuses so that at higher levels more effective instruments are found - even better if the 'higher quality' instruments require a certain level of perform before they can be used effectively (A stradivarius lute anyone?). I might have a go at scripting something like that, but not sure my skills are up to it.
Your module series sounds great - good luck with that and I look forward to any further scripts you publish in this aera
How large a party is your group? The trouble about balancing a mod such as this is that its effect on game balance varies drastically with the size of the party.
For example, if the party has only three characters, then you're giving up approximately 1/3 of your fighting ability for an extra +2/+2. And if one of those three is a wizard, then only one character will really benefit. In that situation, lowering it to +1/+1 feels underpowered to me.
On the other hand, if your party consists of two fighters, a cleric, a rogue, and a bard, then you are exchanging your least effective melee character for a significant benefit to the rest of the party. In this situation, the extra +2/+2 seems like a lot.
The other thing is that you apparently are playing with low-level characters, since the bonus without instruments is currently only +1/+1. This means that the instruments triple your bonus. At higher levels, the relative benefit drops to double, then less. At very high levels, an extra +1/+1 would be practically insignificant compared to the loss of a sword-arm, except in the most extremely unbalanced parties.
Perhaps the benefit from the instruments should scale with level. But I'm afraid that would make it crazy powerful in the upper levels.
If you are making your own modules, then the solution is pretty clear to me: First, don't make instruments available immediately. Second, change the scripts so that different instruments give different bonuses. That also will help make it more exciting to find new instruments.
In the module series I am planning, I intend to replace the bard songs with entirely custom ones, and have each instrument you find give different bonuses. Your first instrument will be so bad that it will actually give you a penalty. But you'll still need to use it; no whistling your songs in my module. I'll also have the various songs not gained on level-up, but rather by finding them on quests or composing them yourself. On top of that, I hope to allow you to craft your own instruments!
Some pretty ambitious stuff, especially since I will also have complex intertwined plot arches that span the entire series. This is why a collaborator would be nice; I've got some great ideas, but I'm not sure of my ability to implement them well all by myself.
So far, I've got the plot arches mapped out, and I have planned the bulk of the encounters and puzzles for the first two modules, along with several that will appear in the later ones. Now I'm getting into the toolset to make some of it actually happen. _________________________ Big Inventory Icons and Character Info Link
Readable Books Link
Less Obtrusive Spell Buffs Link
Posted by puychaudko at 2007-01-22 06:28:52 Voted 8.25 on 01/16/07
Clubok,
Thanks for offer of collaboration, problem is it is all I can do to keep my adventure hungry friends satisfied without taking on any more.
We did play last night using the scripts as-is, without any problem - chap playing a bard was delighted, as was the party. Re balance, I hadn't realised that the bonuses were on top of the bonus already given by NWN2 - I thought they had replaced them, so inspire courage gives +3 to hit and +3 damage if bard uses an instrument, rather than +2, +2 as I had expected. I think this is a little too much - the party ripped through monsters that they should have had some difficulty with. Could I suggest that bonuses for inspire legion, courage, competence, defense, toughness be +1 in addition to NWN2 bonuses, rather than +2? Can't really comment on other bonuses yet.
Puychaudko: If you are planning on incorporating these scripts into a module, I would strongly recommend you not to use them as-is. There is so much you can do to give different behaviors to different instruments. The mod as it is here is really meant as a generic override, so you can enjoy some of these rule changes in a module that wasn't specifically written for them.
Actually, I am in the early stages of designing a series of Bard-specific modules that incorporates this concept. It's an ambitious project (six modules long!) so it remains to be seen whether it ever sees the light of day. Let me know if you have any interest in collaborating.
In any event, thanks for your vote! _________________________ Big Inventory Icons and Character Info Link
Readable Books Link
Less Obtrusive Spell Buffs Link
Posted by puychaudko at 2007-01-16 00:47:16 Voted 8.25 on 01/16/07
Clubok,
I have always been reluctant to depart from the D&D rules on the grounds that the D&D system has been tweaked and balanced over many years and through many playtests...however, I am attracted to this and will try it in my module - I can always take it out if it overbalances the game. I suspect that problems like this only appear at high levels, and as we play once per week it may be some time before problems (if any) appear. One suggestion - in my module I will replace normal flutes etc with those carrying a revised description that explains how use of the instrument affects bard songs etc. In this way the bard can always check what the effect of using the instrument will be. My vote is for the idea and implementation - I can't yet vote on the effectiveness of the mod on gameplay and balance, so I may come back and revise. Keep up the good work!
Posted by ddbrenne at 2007-01-07 04:58:00 Voted 9.25 on 01/06/07
I have used regen., toughness, AC, and inspire hit/damage. I really do not think they are overpowered. I use regen a lot and inspire hit/damage about as much. I think that the fact that I am out of physical combat and devoting my bard just to inspiring my party is the balance enough. I am a level 13 right now, 9 Bard, 4 wizard. This is my first run through the OC. I have my settings on hardcore. The battles are for the most part not too difficult. We try to RP realistically, so we have not crafted uber weapons. We work with what we find etc.
About the puppet mode thing, do you have the AI fix that is posted on the vault? I do not and even in puppet mode my bard goes stupid on me when I am not controlling her.
The vote number is again taken from the point of view of as person who enjoys the roleplay aspect ahead of combat/loot. I can see why others may find it too powerful, as it does tweak 3.5 rules. While I enjoyed PNP in the day, I only played to 3ed and like what CRPG has done for the rules when it is subtile and believeable.
That being said I cannot comment on improvements. I like it.
Thanks again. To me it adds a lot to my game.
I still intend to implement the changes I outlined in the 12/19 post, but was hoping first to receive some more balancing suggestions. Do I interpret you correctly that you think the balance is about right? If so, then which songs/inspirations are the ones you've tested with?
I hadn't considered that this would really screw up the AI - it seems obvious now. I'm afraid that rewriting the AI to handle this intelligently is far more than I am likely to undertake - unless somebody who has worked with the AI scripts is interested in collaborating.
Then again, even without this, the delivered AI for bards is so bad that I've always put any bards in my party in Puppet Mode. That's why I didn't notice the issue in my own testing. _________________________ Big Inventory Icons and Character Info Link
Readable Books Link
Less Obtrusive Spell Buffs Link
Posted by ddbrenne at 2007-01-06 09:52:20 Voted 9.25 on 01/06/07
Thank You clubok for this. I posted about it on your thread at ign as AuntDot. I have put it in and I do like the effect. The + 2 on regen inspiration is great. I love that if I stand back and play one of my cool instruments that I have I get more out of it. I voted 9.25 as a player who loves to play a bard as I believe it is meant to be played. This adds a LOT to the RP experience IMO.
As far as the balance is concerned. I stand by the concept that that giving up a member of combat for the extra bonus is worth it.
The only flaw is when I jump in to command an NPC, sometimes my bard holding her instrument screws up and starts to fight or unequips. I am trying to get the puppet mode right, but the AI does some funky things.
Thanks again!
I did not know that the DC calculation is different for different inspirations/songs - I thing I was only looking at the curse song script when writing my post. Perhaps before making suggestions I should actually play a bard :D.
I'm not sure I understand your objection to scaling DC. As delivered, Cloud Mind scales with Perform/2, which amounts to the same thing. And Inspire Slowing scales with Level/2. Without this type of scaling, bard songs/inspirations become useless at high levels. In contrast, Wizards' spells are still good at high levels, since they continually get access to higher-level spells, which have a higher DC. Note that this effect essentially makes their spells' DC scale as Level/2.
On the other hand, Fascinate scales with the Charisma modifier, which makes the song less useful than the others at high level.
Arguably, adding another Level/2 to DC for Cloud Mind and Inspire Slowing makes them way overpowered, though. Given the fact that they already scale, I agree that a constant bonus is more appropriate. But is +2 really sufficient to compensate for the loss of a weapon? In Inspire Slowing, probably, because the slowing effect is also increased. But in Cloud Mind, the extra duration is not so useful, because a companion will inevitably break the spell.
What would you say to a +4 bonus for Cloud Mind, a +2 bonus for Fascinate, and increasing the radius of the Fascinate effect?
The effect on duration is not what was intended, but I also don't see where it's happening. The adjustment is being done after ApplySongDurationFeatMods, so that shouldn't be a problem. Which script do you see this in?
I didn't even realize that Ironskin was broken - and I played through the entire OC with a bard! Of course, I mostly stuck to inspirations and Curse Song. I'll make sure to fix that bug in the next version. _________________________ Big Inventory Icons and Character Info Link
Readable Books Link
Less Obtrusive Spell Buffs Link
- imho (spell) DC should never depend on class levels. As it is now wielding an instrument is far more powerful as feats like Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus or even Epic Spell Focus. I would make it constant +2 bonus (equal to Spell Focus).
- Lingering Song adds +5 to duration. At the moment Lingering Song + Wielding Instrument adds 5*1.5 = +7 to duration. Not sure if that's the desired effect. See the 'ApplySongDurationFeatMods()' function.
- Since you modify the Ironskin song script you also could fix it :D. At the moment it's broken and does nothing (except making your char look bad). The EffectDamageResistance() function call is broken (you have to switch first and second parameter).
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